This week, our feature is a conversation between two of The Winters Group’s instructional designers, Tami Jackson and Scott Ferry. In this chat conversation they discussed their respective experiences with anxiety in the workplace and by whose standards we measure being “okay,” as well as how their respective identities have influenced how they have learned to navigate mental health issues in the workplace.
Scott Ferry:
Hey, friend! How are you doing this morning?
I was thinking about our conversation the other day, and how anxiety can so often make little things seem impossible for me. It reminded me of this video that Harris sent recently (not exactly sure where—I think in Slack).
It’s about ADHD, which isn’t an issue for me, but hoo boy did it ever resonate with me anyway. Have you watched it?
Tami Jackson:
Hey Bud! Today – this week – has been a week, and it’s only Wednesday. Thank you so much for asking.
I have not seen this video, so let me pause right quick and check it out.
Tami Jackson:
So, I checked out the video and one of my favorite takeaways is “the wall of awful” – While I do not experience ADHD, the “wall of awful” resonates so deeply with me as a Black woman who lives with anxiety; especially as it relates to the workplace. Having to navigate that in spaces that have never been safe for me has been, and can be, a lot… a lot.
Scott Ferry:
Right? I can obviously only speak to my experiences as a white guy, so I’m sure it hit me differently, but the way he describes it sounds pretty much exactly like what I struggle with when anxiety keeps me from starting something… which happens a lot….
I know you’ve had varied work experiences, so I’m curious: how has your anxiety been received at your workplace, especially by supervisors? Or is it just something you keep inside, and then figure out how to climb the “wall of awful” yourself?
Tami Jackson:
Oh … have mercy. It depends on what part of my career I was in. When I first got into the workforce, I remember how clearly I was taught to “never let them see you sweat” as a method of survival. Meaning, if I was going to be taken seriously as a young Black woman in the workplace, then I can never ever let anyone know anything bothers me ever – even when it was super harmful, isolating, or dehumanizing. But the gag is, I am human right? So, nothing about that expectation is actually obtainable or realistic. So, when I did have panic attacks, defend myself against unfair treatment, or turn down offers to socialize outside of work with people who were unsafe to me, my anxiety seemed more of a nuisance than something that actually had a very real impact on me, my day, and overall lived experience.
There is an old Black American adage that goes: “Stay ready so you don’t have to get ready” – and that is a perfect summary of how my anxiety works and operates. It’s the hyper vigilance against threat and harm that, unfortunately I’ve had to endure, but allows very little room for peace, ease, and trust. The problem is while I am often over prepared and “ready” it hardly ever comes with ease or peace of mind which anxiety of all kinds can rob a person of.
Now, at this big age, I just tell my team, supervisor, and colleagues and lead with it – even in interviews. I’ve shared with managers and supervisors how anxiety shows up for me in these corporate spaces, what I do to manage it, and share with them the type of support I need from them as my manager and teammates, as well as my boundaries. So, for example, when I met you – I asked you what ways in which you best receive feedback, especially critical feedback, and shared which works best for me. Do you remember that? In your experience, have you been able to ask for what you need in a workplace to help you manage anxiety and has there been anything in particular that stands out that you’ve experienced in the workplace that has been affirming to you as someone with anxiety?
Scott Ferry:
Yeah, I really appreciated your openness in talking about giving and receiving feedback in that first conversation. I didn’t realize that it was also a sort of an anxiety mitigation effort, but that makes a ton of sense as a tactic.
That idea of “never let them see you sweat” is very similar to how boys and men are socialized in general, actually. Mental health is, of course, still stigmatized in society at-large. Even while we collectively seem to be getting better at confronting it, I still have to work very hard to allow myself to admit any weakness—especially when it comes to emotion and anxiety or depression.
I know that my identities afford me massive amounts of privilege. It being okay to not be okay is not one of them. It makes me think about that idea of by whose standards. I’ve always had supervisors who have asked how I’m doing, but the subtext has always been by my standards, you know?
I've always had supervisors who have asked how I'm doing, but the subtext has always been by *my* standards, you know? Share on XI made the mistake a couple of times with different employers to answer the question honestly, and the reaction was…not great.
It made me realize that they wanted to know only so long as the answer was, “Yeah, I’m great!”
So, to make a long answer even longer, no I definitely haven’t been able to ask for what I need—partially because I don’t think my employers have actually particularly cared; and partially (if not mostly) because I’ve never really let myself think in those terms at work. Honestly, if someone asked me that now, I’m not sure how I would respond. I’d probably just say something like, “Oh, I don’t need anything special. I’ll figure it out myself. Thanks for asking though!”
Because rugged individualism and internalized toxic masculinity and all that…
I’m impressed that you’ve gotten to the place where you can actually be forthright about it. I mean, I can talk about with y’all here, and with close friends. But generally speaking, I don’t talk much about anxiety.
How have employers and colleagues typically responded to those conversations?
Tami Jackson:
I appreciate you mentioning the societal expectations placed on young boys and men as it relates to mental health and how that socialization does indeed create certain expectations. I felt that on a deep level. Even though I am not male, I often have these expectations placed on me to be strong… no matter what based on my identities, so this resonates deeply.
Typically, employers and colleagues kinda just don’t have a plan for it. They don’t know what to do, and outside of pointing me to HR related resources, there are not many tools or leadership trainings folks have had to address mental health in the workplace and ways they can support their colleague or teammate – this is a systemic issue. I think that is the reason that I’ve grown into this forthrightness and boldness around it because, like so many other of my intersections, I did not have any advocacy for me and after a few experiences, I just realized speaking up for myself and asking for what I need can’t be any worse than what was happening in the absence of self-advocacy – closed mouths don’t get fed. And that’s hard, Scott. Because you always run this risk of being seen as incompetent or having to live with the reality of this proverbial scarlet letter – and yes, even in DEI spaces. So, I just found a way to identify what I needed and how folks could support me, so I could navigate it all. I try to remind folks that just because I carry it well, does not mean it ain’t heavy.
I just realized speaking up for myself and asking for what I need can't be any worse than what was happening in the absence of self-advocacy - closed mouths don't get fed. Share on X
Scott Ferry:
Dang, that’s real.
It’s an excellent point, too, that there’s rarely any training or preparation for people managers around their direct reports’ mental health. They are taught to manage work and workers, but often not taught to manage people. I guess that’s a good place to start, then: figuring out how to support managers in supporting their employees as whole human beings.
People managers are taught to manage work and workers, but often not taught to manage people. Share on X
Scott Ferry:
Okay, logging off for the day! Thanks for the great conversation! Let’s dig into this more soon.
Tami Jackson:
Absolutely! Can’t wait. Have a good one, Scott!
Co-Author: Scott Ferry
